Personal profile

Neil Hick started fencing when he was about 10 years of age and fenced as a junior for a number of years. Neil was awarded a scholarship to America and fenced in America for five years before coming back to Australia. Having fenced in both national and international competitions Neil commenced coaching and has done so continuously over the past 30 years. Neil has had the opportunity to take junior and senior team teams interstate and overseas.  He completed his Level 3 coaching course and took senior and junior Modern Pentathlon teams overseas. That experience resulted in Neil managing the Modern Pentathlon Team at the 2012 London Olympics Games. Neil was the National Team Manager from 2001 until 2004 and again from 2010 until 2012. 

As Neil so succinctly puts it “the sport of fencing never ceases to amaze me and I am still learning and still enjoying fencing”.

 

What have been some of the significant trends and highlights in Australian fencing?

Have to understand I started fencing 45 years ago, so there have been some major changes over that period of time.

But the ones I see that are interesting and the first one that is quite good is the move from people competing at an international level in multi weapons to focusing on a single weapon. This is something we should have done a long time ago. In the past, I competed in all three weapons to give myself more competition, on reflection I do not believe this was the right thing to do.

Now you get people who train only in one weapon and compete only in one weapon and so now become specialists which, I think, as a small country we need to do. You can’t have good athletes trying to compete in all 3 weapons. It just doesn’t happen. You need to focus on one weapon. They go to Europe and they train and compete in one weapon and with one coach.

Early on they might try all three. We have people in international standard competing in more than one weapon. It is being ‘Jack of all Trades, Master of None’. How can you fence one day in foil and then compete the next day at international level in epee. It is not the same at all. You can’t be fantastic in all 3 weapons. You need to focus on one and improve your chances of getting a good result.

 

the sport of fencing never ceases to amaze me and I am still learning and still enjoying fencing.

 

Secondly, I have seen the AFT come in, and that obviously is an attempt to make people more professional. That is quite a controversial issue, which I am not going to go into too much; people going into international competitions because they are in the AFT rather than because they are at a certain standard concerns me.

The third thing I have seen is the rise of fencing in this area of the world. That’s a major change. Look at China and Asian fencing.  Look at the Asian Championships, where you have got Hong Kong and Singapore putting major amounts of money and athletes into fencing.  Years ago they were quite easy to beat. Now they are powerhouses. Singapore, as an example, has made a financial commitment to fencing. They are a small island country and they are expecting international results.

China is winning gold medals in the Olympics and world championships now. Korea, Japan weren’t big into fencing a number of years ago and they are now winning world titles and Olympic medals and the Asia region as a political and fencing area are becoming increasingly important. Beijing Olympics was a real test for Asian fencing. We now see the benefits

 

Why hasn’t fencing in Australia been given a similar profile to that in Asia?

Why hasn’t fencing in Australia been given the same profile as in Asia, is because Australia already has its high profile sports. We have our swimming, equestrian, rowing and that is where we put our limited resources into.

You get a powerhouse like China. It has millions of people; it is a machine.  It has been a machine for years in terms of gymnastics, but now they are spreading out to all sports because politically it increases their profile.

And we are not only talking China, There is also Thailand, Korea.

It also goes back to their cultural roots, because they are a martial arts culture and fencing is not that far away. It is a sport that needs equipment, technology and money is not a problem for Asia. From Asia’s perspective, it is also seen as a high profile sport in Europe.

Australia has limited resources and so we need to be very careful where we put those resources. The question is, do we spread those out or do we focus them in one area, whatever that area is.

There are perhaps other trends, but I think the ones I have referred to have shaped the past few years in fencing. We have seen an increase in fencing in schools, but  will touch on that later.

 

What is your view of the ‘health’ of fencing in Australia?

I think the health of fencing in Australia hasn’t changed that much. The other sports and countries are improving and if you are not going forward, then you are going backwards.

  

The other sports and countries are improving and if you are not going forward, then you are going backwards.

  

I think having the facilities that we have here in North Melbourne is a massive improvement. We have a home and we have an identity and that is a big step forward. Fencing needs a home and I don’t know of any major sport that does not have some sort of home or base. So that when you speak to people and say that is our training centre or high performance centre and it is a physical building that we have sole access and tenancy to, that is an important statement. A lot of people put in a lot of work to get a permanent venue, and this is a quality venue. You go overseas and you see some of the fencing clubs around the world and it is very similar to this.

We need to also keep pushing forward. The focus on where we spend our time and money is the issue – we have limited funds and resources and we need to examine how do we distribute those…..and I don’t think I have an answer. And many people have differing views and opinions as to where funds and resources should go.

 

We need to also keep pushing forward. The focus on where we spend our time and money is the issue – we have limited funds and resources

 

We need money. We are not going to get corporate dollars because we don’t have the profile to make it worthwhile for corporate sponsors. Government and community funding is available and we should tap into it. For example, we have a growing aged population and there is funding available for such specific groups. Our growing veteran fencing community demonstrates that funding for fencing would be appropriate.

 

Do those various differing views inhibit fencing in Australia?

No, I don’t think it is inhibiting at all. I think you need to open up expression of them. The avenues to make those opinions known may be more difficult.

As I have said, limited resources need to be focused on in agreed areas and what the level of resources is going to be aimed at.

 

Do you have a view as to where those resources should be aimed?

My background has been with the juniors, but I have spent a fair amount of time with the seniors and international fencing. I look at other sports, and it is a competition with AFL, with soccer, with netball, with all the other sports. I am a teacher by vocation and I see people coming into year 7 and year 8 and their pathway for sports is already set. I look at some year 7 and year 8 students and I think to myself ‘gee, I could make you a fencer’ and they play football, cricket, athletics, netball; but they are locked in now. It is too late. We tend to get some quite good athletes at times, but they have gone down a different track. The majority of people who are interested in sport by that age there are other competing options. My son went to AusKick where you get 10 weeks tuition, you pay 10 dollars and he got a football for that. That is what fencing is competing against. The question is, is that where we should be putting our focus? Getting people in at the grass roots is important. Most of our top athletes have started in their twenties…it’s a bit late. It is very rare to get a person who is in athletics and say, now you are going to be a fencer and take them to an elite level. They have to start young and we need to get them when they are young, otherwise we are not going to have the material to work with later.

There is a program called ‘After Schools’ which is a sports program that I have been involved with and it involves getting out to schools. I know Pieter Leeuwenburgh has been involved in this. 

 

The best place to start is to target the schools, where you can train the PE teachers and give them the gear to use, or preferably, send in your own people to teach fencing.

 

We need to get out there and to expose the students to the sport and the fencing environment and from there channel their interest to a local fencing club. I know clubs run junior programs, but kids have to come to the clubs. The best place to start is to target the schools, where you can train the PE teachers and give them the gear to use, or preferably, send in your own people to teach fencing. Because training tends to be after school and most people have jobs it is not always possible for them to do the training. Maybe, we need to focus on fencers who have retired, but who still participate in the sport. We should be looking at people who can come to PE sessions and run some fencing training for say, a period of three weeks. You make it a couple of dollars a week, so that the cost is at an absolute minimum, enough to cover some expenses. And those students who are interested can be given some contacts and away they go. We need to work as the other sports have done.

You can throw all the money you want at elite programs, but if you don’t have the talent to start with, then you are beating a dead horse. The good athletes are already gone. It is a numbers game. With the juniors, you might have twenty in a group with two having potential. But you have to have the numbers in the first place. With the clubs, you are relying on them walking through your door. But, get out there where they are.

 

You can throw all the money you want at elite programs, but if you don’t have the talent to start with, then you are beating a dead horse.

 

Recently, a program started in Geelong at Deakin University and got 20 to 30 on the first night. It was well advertised, but they were still the 18 to 20 years old. You want them from 8-year old and give them plastic swords and make it fun for them. We don’t do that and perhaps that is where our resources should be focused. Unlike fencing in Europe, because we don’t have the profile in Australia we have to work that much smarter.

The thing is that there is government money out there. For the program we are doing in Geelong, the ‘After Schools’ program gave us $2000 for plastic foils and sabres, and masks, so there is government money that can be tapped into. And again, Pieter Leeuwenburgh helped me with that.  But we need more and we need to identify good people who can go out and do things with the young people.

People who are still working at 5.30, for them it is a bit late to get to the schools so we need to focus on people who have the available time. You could go to the next veteran’s competition and ask veteran fencers where they live and if they would be interested in doing a couple of weeks and linking it in with the local club. All you would have to do is the one-day basic coaching course. The time would be minimal and if the interest is there for the person coaching, they can be given another school.

It has been my experience that retired people are looking to volunteer and if you look at the number of people in the veteran fencing ranks, it is quite large. It just needs someone to co-ordinate it all. You need to head-hunt these people and interview them so that you get the right people who are dedicated to helping out youngsters.

Some of the people I am coaching here are university students and they may have some time to do this.

 

What do you see as the challenges facing fencing clubs to continue and maintain their success or survival?

It does relate back to what I have been discussing. It is the number of young people in the club. If you have got a club where the average age is 30 or thereabouts, you have got to get the young persons. If you have got a club member involved with a schools program you can link the club to the school. You can indicate to the schools that the club exists and that it runs beginners classes. You have got to keep people coming in the door. Fencing holds an innate fascination for children and we don’t take advantage of that.

 

Fencing holds an innate fascination for children and we don’t take advantage of that.

 

I end up teaching parents of the children as well because the parents come in and watch their children and they think “well I am here I may as well join in”. Even sometimes, the child stops, but the parent continues. Those parents that come in make great volunteers. They assist in fund raising, supporting competitions. So you need that influx of children because of the many benefits.

Fencing is still not out there. I still hear people say it is hard to find where fencing clubs are, although the internet has improved that situation.

I am not saying anything new. Some of it is already being done by people like Pieter and just needs to continue by tapping into retired people who have fenced, which is an avenue that hasn’t been used as much as it should be.

 

Given you are based in Geelong is there a problem of tyranny of distance for country regional clubs?

Geelong may not be a good example in that I am in Melbourne in 45 minutes. It is a distance issue rather than one of time. You are isolated in that you don’t get the variety of fencing whereas in Melbourne it is easier to get to more clubs. In Geelong it is hard to get over that barrier that you have to go to Melbourne to fence against more fencers because some people in regional areas have a mental block in traveling what they believe is a long distance. 

 

You are only as good as the other person at the other end of the strip.

 

It comes back to my philosophy of fencing. I mainly do epee. I used to do all 3 weapons. But now, if I have 30 odd people in training, I have all 30 people training in epee because it means a fencer has 29 other people to fence. If I have 10 in foil, 10 in epee, 10 in sabre, it means you have only got 9 people to fence. You are only as good as the other person at the other end of the strip. You need to have as wide a variety as possible. Otherwise, if you fence the same 9 people, you know what they do. When you go to competition and you fence someone who has a different style, you are unable to adjust because you are locked into certain skills. I liken it to playing the same golf course all the time. You know what club to use on the various holes. Play on another course and it is a different matter. In fencing, you are only as good as your opposition and that is why you need that variety and depth in competition.

There is a need to ensure that fencers have the opportunity to fence with other clubs. It may be a financial thing but it would be good if you were a member of a club and also had reciprocal rights to fence at other clubs. However, it might be that clubs could not afford to have members of other clubs attending because of the limited number of strips that might be available.

 

What about the state of fencing in Geelong?

It’s healthy. I have got lots of juniors at the moment that are coming up to state and national level. It is a cycle. I had a number of years ago a strong group which means you have strong fencers whereas I have got that building up with a following of 60 or more. At one stage I had more than 100 fencing in Geelong. That’s a problem though, where you can get to a point where you have got too big a number that you can’t look after. I hit my 30^th year in coaching in Geelong. Started in 1984 and it has been a roller coaster of a ride.

 

What elements underpin a good fencing athlete?

They do need a level of ability. Dependent also on muscle fibre type, agility, flexibility…. all these things give a fencer an advantage and then you have the  skills people develop, to think, to react and that is seen by a few people who have the ability to think and react incredibly well. They automatically know what to do against someone else; they just have that ability to understand the game. It is an ability that you can learn but some learn a lot quicker than others.

There is a need to have a sharp mind. Need to have dedication and by that I mean there must be a realistic dedication. You have got some people who train once a week and spend half the time talking because they are typical kids and then they think they will go to state or national comps. But I say to them ‘what sport do you think you can train once a week for and compete at a national level?’ Some kids, regrettably, don’t know what hard work is, but occasionally you get a person who understands the depth of dedication that is required. So the work ethic is an important one. It is a test of character. You can help as a coach, you can encourage it when you see it, but you get some people who take a long time to realise that, and then it can be too late. Dedication and perseverance are important.

I have seen a number of elite people over the years and a lot tend to be self-focused and I don’t mean that in a negative sense. You need to be selfish. Having said that, it is not everyone’s aim to be on the national team. Depends on where your emphasis is and recognise where you are and what you are after. I have people who just want to have some fun, enjoy the sport and the social side and the occasional competition. Others who are looking at the competitive level. As a coach, you need to cater for all.

 

Is there a marked difference between how the Europeans administer fencing compared to Australia? Have we got our act together structurally?

It still comes back to critical mass. It is back to people and people fencing the one weapon. I know Austria at one time said that it was not prepared to fund fencing other than for epee and as a result, I think at one stage they were ranked number four. Whereas we have a three-weapon policy which inevitably means we spread our funding and resources too wide. Smaller countries have done quite well in fencing and yet do not have as strong a sports culture as we do. So, is that something we can look at?

 

One thing I like about judo is that they have a grading system. I would like to see that introduced into fencing with levels that recognise skills achieved.

 

We don’t have a culture of fencing, but there are other sports in Australia which have done well. Judo, for instance. And they don’t exactly have a culture either, but have been successful in making the public aware of their sport. One thing I like about judo is that they have a grading system. I would like to see that introduced into fencing with levels that recognise skills achieved. In judo, they ‘have the coloured belts according to the level that has been achieved. With fencing you should reach a certain level before you compete. You can’t take someone with two weeks training and have them compete in a national competition, whereas if you take soccer, they could train and play for a few weeks and then go out on a field and play a game but with sports like judo and fencing where there is physical contact it takes a while. I have a school of about 20 and I have told them they will not go into competition. We will do two terms of training which is only six months and then the following year they will go into competitions. But what do they get for what they have learnt during the year. They should be given a level by a qualified coach in recognition of skills achieved and when they, say, reach Level C they can compete.  Recognition could be by way of a certificate or a badge, which would be very little cost. It would be good if it were state and national recognised rather than it being a club specific one. That is good for within the club, but if you can give it more recognition than that, it would be good. In judo, they don’t even need to fight to gain the recognition; they just need to demonstrate they have acquired the required skills for that level. Again, it can be linked in with what I have discussed regarding schools participation.

When I first started fencing at school, it took us three days to get through the schools competition. That is how many kids were doing fencing in those days….and that’s where I came from, and  so did a number others. That was just not private schools, the public schools also participated. However, in those days, we had non-electric foils, a shirt, a mask and maybe a glove, so it was financially affordable for schools. We need to now again make fencing more accessible and have an affiliation program with initial entry fees being very cheap (say, $2.00) and increasing as you go up the various levels. Having them registered through such a program means you have the ability to communicate with them through their email addresses and to keep in continuing contact. And we can then advise government of the type of numbers involved in fencing which is also important.

 

We need to now again make fencing more accessible and have an affiliation program with initial entry fees being very cheap (say, $2.00) and increasing as you go up the various levels.

 

You can give a person 10 weeks instruction in epee and put them into a competition and they will get hits. Also to electronics is cheaper such as the epee, the body-wire whereas foil tends to be a little more erratic. Epee electronics are easier to fix.

We have started up a schools program and we had an epee competition last year and we had 74 in one age group. We made it affordable and it is now financially viable and so you have coaches coming in to assist the program. In fact, we ended up having to cut off the number of registrations. It also enabled us to have expert back-up for any equipment failures. So, it shows that there is a demand. The potential is there.